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T O P I C R E V I E WDuke Of URLWho's the boss in Outer Space?Can a Mission Specialist be Commander or outrank the Pilot?What happens on the ISS? Is the shuttle commander Big Babalu? What happens if a Russian cosmonaut or an etcetera-naut from another country tells he or she to pound micrometeorites?Does NASA have a conflict-resolution protocol and have fists ever flown as well as cargo?DavidHShuttle commanders are always pilots, since their duties include flying the Shuttle (The "pilot" might more accurately be considered co-pilot).On the ISS, though, things are different; Mike Foale last year became NASA's first non-pilot mission Commander as head of the Expedition 8 increment on the Station.When the Shuttle is docked, presumably the Shuttle Commander and the Station Commander maintain authority over their respective crews.------------------ http://allthese worlds.hatbag.net/space.php "America's challenge of today has forged man's destiny of tomorrow." - Commander Eugene Cernan, Apollo 17 Mission, 11 December 1972Duke Of URLSuppose there's a disagreement. Who rules? I can't imagine a fist fight in zero-G - they're awkward enough here on Earth especially during hockey games - but there might be a beef where the Shuttle Dude and ISS Dude (or Dudette as the case may be) are in disagreement.Also, suppose an ESA astronaut decides to tell the Shuttle commander to pound micrometeroites? Can he be canned from the Shuttle flight if he's due to come back?Would the Commander's decision be final even if the astronaut's health might suffer from a continued zero-G stay?sts205cdrWhen the Shuttle is docked to the ISS, I believe each CDR maintains his or her authority over their vehicle. I can't imagine any other arrangement working.Shuttle pilot-astronauts have served as mission specialists in the past, so they don't have to serve as pilots. BTW, Shep was the first non-pilot CDR of an ISS crew.--John FFrench quote:Originally posted by Duke Of URL:Suppose there's a disagreement. Who rules? I can't imagine a fist fight in zero-G - they're awkward enough here on Earth especially during hockey gamesNot exactly the same scenario, but disagreements have happened in space, and the best-known ones are the ones that took place on long-duration Soviet missions. A natural awkwardness was created when a rookie cosmonaut would command a more experienced spacefarer. Zimmerman, Oberg and Lebedev's book, amongst others, will give you the details you are looking for, if you are interested.There have, of course, been disagreements on Shuttle missions, but because of the effect airing such dirty laundry has on astronaut careers, they tend to be kept very, very quiet. Talk to the right people, in confidence, and you'll hear some stories!FFAstro BillWhen John Glenn flew on STS-95 there must have been a few awkward moments with the shuttle commander. Duke Of URL quote:Originally posted by Astro Bill:When John Glenn flew on STS-95 there must have been a few awkward moments with the shuttle commander. Sen. Glenn never struck me as the sort to presume on a mission commander. On the other hand, I've heard he wasn't all that squeaky clean; someone said he could swear and chew people out as well as the next Marine officer. He's still a man you'd want to have your back, though. Just like the rest of 'em.I thought Wally Schirra's comment about needing three years to train because he'd only fly as Commander was funny. He'd also fly a perfect mission as CDR too.[This message has been edited by Duke Of URL (edited May 04, 2005).]FFrench quote:Originally posted by Astro Bill:When John Glenn flew on STS-95 there must have been a few awkward moments with the shuttle commander. Not at all - Glenn went out of his way during all of the pre-mission publicity to try and take the spotlight off him and put it onto the other crewmembers and the objectives of the mission. It was not false modesty, either - that's the kind of person he is.FFOV-105I wonder what is like for some of the Astronauts who have been shuttle CDR's when they fly the mid deck up and down for the ISS flights or like John Blaha for his Mir flight. The I know how to fly this and now I am just a passenger.Carrie quote:Originally posted by FFrench:There have, of course, been disagreements on Shuttle missions, but because of the effect airing such dirty laundry has on astronaut careers, they tend to be kept very, very quiet. Talk to the right people, in confidence, and you'll hear some stories!Marsha Ivins, while not naming names, told a very funny one when I met her in January. She went up with a Shuttle crew who kept the temperature too cold for her liking, so she told them,"if you feel something wet brush against you in the night, it's just my nose - I'm snuggling closer to try and get warm".She noticed the temperature got warmer for the rest of the flight So, subtle threats can be effective in bringing crewmates around, but it takes a combination of telling it like it is and a dry sense of humor, like she has!divemasterPoor analogy coming up:I hold instructor status when it comes to Scuba diving. I actually look forward to the times when I'm NOT the instructor and someone else is in charge. As a matter of fact, if I'm "joy diving", I leave my instructor card at home. [Larry McGlynn - feel free to chime in here]. When I'm "just another diver" on the boat, I follow all of the instructions and protocols as put forward by the divemaster of the boat. It's his/her boat and his/her neck if anything happens. I have no ego if an instructor asks me to run through any set of basic skills. I also know that if something "major" should happen, I'm in a position to help.I'd assume that it's something similar with pilots and CDR's. The non-CDR has their own set of responsibilities and duties and will respect the CDR. In an emergency, they'll step in to help with their experience.At the same time, I'm reminded of what Wally Schirra said about Apollo 7. It's his ship and his responsibility. A ground controller questioning his decision making isn't going to get killed by falling out of his chair.These astronauts are so highly skilled and trained that I doubt anyone would questions the CDR's authority unless he/she is obviously impaired and putting the lives of the crew(s) in danger.-tracy
Can a Mission Specialist be Commander or outrank the Pilot?
What happens on the ISS? Is the shuttle commander Big Babalu? What happens if a Russian cosmonaut or an etcetera-naut from another country tells he or she to pound micrometeorites?
Does NASA have a conflict-resolution protocol and have fists ever flown as well as cargo?
On the ISS, though, things are different; Mike Foale last year became NASA's first non-pilot mission Commander as head of the Expedition 8 increment on the Station.
When the Shuttle is docked, presumably the Shuttle Commander and the Station Commander maintain authority over their respective crews.
------------------ http://allthese worlds.hatbag.net/space.php "America's challenge of today has forged man's destiny of tomorrow." - Commander Eugene Cernan, Apollo 17 Mission, 11 December 1972
Also, suppose an ESA astronaut decides to tell the Shuttle commander to pound micrometeroites? Can he be canned from the Shuttle flight if he's due to come back?
Would the Commander's decision be final even if the astronaut's health might suffer from a continued zero-G stay?
Shuttle pilot-astronauts have served as mission specialists in the past, so they don't have to serve as pilots.
BTW, Shep was the first non-pilot CDR of an ISS crew.
--John
quote:Originally posted by Duke Of URL:Suppose there's a disagreement. Who rules? I can't imagine a fist fight in zero-G - they're awkward enough here on Earth especially during hockey games
Not exactly the same scenario, but disagreements have happened in space, and the best-known ones are the ones that took place on long-duration Soviet missions. A natural awkwardness was created when a rookie cosmonaut would command a more experienced spacefarer. Zimmerman, Oberg and Lebedev's book, amongst others, will give you the details you are looking for, if you are interested.
There have, of course, been disagreements on Shuttle missions, but because of the effect airing such dirty laundry has on astronaut careers, they tend to be kept very, very quiet. Talk to the right people, in confidence, and you'll hear some stories!
FF
quote:Originally posted by Astro Bill:When John Glenn flew on STS-95 there must have been a few awkward moments with the shuttle commander.
Sen. Glenn never struck me as the sort to presume on a mission commander. On the other hand, I've heard he wasn't all that squeaky clean; someone said he could swear and chew people out as well as the next Marine officer. He's still a man you'd want to have your back, though. Just like the rest of 'em.
I thought Wally Schirra's comment about needing three years to train because he'd only fly as Commander was funny. He'd also fly a perfect mission as CDR too.
[This message has been edited by Duke Of URL (edited May 04, 2005).]
Not at all - Glenn went out of his way during all of the pre-mission publicity to try and take the spotlight off him and put it onto the other crewmembers and the objectives of the mission. It was not false modesty, either - that's the kind of person he is.
quote:Originally posted by FFrench:There have, of course, been disagreements on Shuttle missions, but because of the effect airing such dirty laundry has on astronaut careers, they tend to be kept very, very quiet. Talk to the right people, in confidence, and you'll hear some stories!
Marsha Ivins, while not naming names, told a very funny one when I met her in January. She went up with a Shuttle crew who kept the temperature too cold for her liking, so she told them,
"if you feel something wet brush against you in the night, it's just my nose - I'm snuggling closer to try and get warm".
She noticed the temperature got warmer for the rest of the flight
So, subtle threats can be effective in bringing crewmates around, but it takes a combination of telling it like it is and a dry sense of humor, like she has!
I hold instructor status when it comes to Scuba diving. I actually look forward to the times when I'm NOT the instructor and someone else is in charge. As a matter of fact, if I'm "joy diving", I leave my instructor card at home. [Larry McGlynn - feel free to chime in here]. When I'm "just another diver" on the boat, I follow all of the instructions and protocols as put forward by the divemaster of the boat. It's his/her boat and his/her neck if anything happens. I have no ego if an instructor asks me to run through any set of basic skills. I also know that if something "major" should happen, I'm in a position to help.
I'd assume that it's something similar with pilots and CDR's. The non-CDR has their own set of responsibilities and duties and will respect the CDR. In an emergency, they'll step in to help with their experience.
At the same time, I'm reminded of what Wally Schirra said about Apollo 7. It's his ship and his responsibility. A ground controller questioning his decision making isn't going to get killed by falling out of his chair.
These astronauts are so highly skilled and trained that I doubt anyone would questions the CDR's authority unless he/she is obviously impaired and putting the lives of the crew(s) in danger.
-tracy
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